Coming to a Badland Forum Near You!

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Confirmed, my F5 kit is ready for pickup! Tentatively scheduled to be picked up June 2 and to find its way into my poll barn by the 4th.

I'm looking forward to starting my build. Part of the build will be done by my nephew's son, who is learning how to interpret instructions, and figure out what they mean (reading comprehension). I figure, if a 14-year-old young man can help me build this plane, anyone can build one. I'm hoping to video the entire build and name each step based on title or some other indicator in the manual. This hopefully will help those with questions to find exactly what they need. Where they are in the manual should have a video associated with it or at least near it.

I'm also looking forward to all the help I can get. Since this is my first aircraft build, I'll be running questions by you all.

Soon I'll pop the box open and the game will begin.

Todd

[13brv3]

Congrats! Are you still planning to bring it back yourself, or did you end up deciding to have it shipped. I might have to make that decision at some point.

[LA F2 Flyer]

I am very much looking forward to your build posts and questions!

Bring it, sir!

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Congrats! Are you still planning to bring it back yourself, or did you end up deciding to have it shipped. I might have to make that decision at some point.

Thank you both. This has been a long wait.

Confirmed, my sister and I will be leaving on June 2nd. The entire drive to Chris's is 21 hours, 17 minutes. We'll drive to Marion, IL and stay overnight there. The next day, we'll drive the rest of the way to Chris's house. We will load the crate onto the flatbed trailer, stay the night at a local hotel, and then head back to Marion the next morning. One more night in Marion, and then home. Chris posted a video of one of his customers who decided not to crate the kit. He and Chris were loading the customer's flatbed - in the snow! Uh, nope, crate it! So Chris is prepping the kit for crated travel.

It looks like my nephew's son is going on the road trip. He'll be helping me build the kit and be in the build videos. He's growing up and though summer vacation is coming, he doesn't want to spend it at home, so he asked if he could come along. He's a bright young man, and learning how to figure things out when fixing or making things. His dad, grandpa, and I have been helping him to learn how to figure things out, giving him experience he can count on in the future. When someone says "I can't do that", he'll be one of few that'll say, get out of the way, I can. We all make him do the work. We guide, but don't give the answers. He's got to figure things out on his own, with a little direction assistance. He's getting pretty good at that. He's also interested in aircraft. His grandpa (my dad) was in the USAF for 20 years. He was a boom operator on KC-135 Q models, at the time the only certified in flight refueling aircraft for the SR-71 Blackbird. Beale AFB in Northern California was the US home of the SR-71. We were one of the few military families that never moved because once part of the crew to maintain the SR-71's mission, always part of that crew. I was also born there, so it was certainly home to me. So, there's a little flying blood in the family. Justin is a good kid. I think we'll have fun building the kit and posting the videos together.

[Bruce_L]

It looks like my nephew's son is going on the road trip. He'll be helping me build the kit and be in the build videos. He's growing up and though summer vacation is coming, he doesn't want to spend it at home, so he asked if he could come along. He's a bright young man, and learning how to figure things out when fixing or making things. His dad, grandpa, and I have been helping him to learn how to figure things out.

Mister F5, I hope you know how much this build will have such a positive impact on this kids life. Learn by doing. Maybe a few mistakes sure, but that's part of the process. I know, I make plenty with more on the way. So many young adults today have zero skills and not a hint of self confidence either. I feel sorry for the kids who have mediocre parents, if any, and no access to any worthwhile mentors to help them develop into the person they have the potential to become. What a great plan man! Good luck on the trip. You might set the mileage record for a Badland crate run.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Mister F5, I hope you know how much this build will have such a positive impact on this kids life. Learn by doing. Maybe a few mistakes sure, but that's part of the process. I know, I make plenty with more on the way. So many young adults today have zero skills and not a hint of self confidence either. I feel sorry for the kids who have mediocre parents, if any, and no access to any worthwhile mentors to help them develop into the person they have the potential to become. What a great plan man! Good luck on the trip. You might set the mileage record for a Badland crate run.

Yes sir, just trying to give my nephew's son some knowledge and skills my dad gave me. When I moved out here to Florida, I saw that the schools here, though good, are doing much of what the rest of the country is doing to our youth. They are teaching them the follow the numbers processes. That makes for great minions. Here's your instructions, follow the numbers, don't think. What's really sad is my nephew's son (Justin) is very intelligent, but like most youngster's problem resolving without prior knowledge of the subject or issue does not exist.

Justin has worked at my farm several times. We've done projects where I guide, but don't give the answers as he does the work. He's learning quickly how to figure things out, and the rule of, if it doesn't look right, it most likely isn't right, back up and try again. Like you mention, there have been a few mistakes, but he's quickly figured them out and made corrections. I, too, have made plenty, just about a lifetimes worth! Justin's self-confidence is growing. I've told him a couple of times, in the future, when he's out with friends and something goes wrong with the car or whatever, and all the kids are asking "what do we do?", Justin will push them out of the way and say "Watch and learn, watch and learn".

The trip is a hair over 1,500 miles one way from Middelburg FL to Truman, MN. I think it'll be good for him to meet Chris, and see what setting up a business is like. Justin does excellent in school, and has a great memory. He's also very dedicated to family, much more than any other youngster I've seen. I'm very proud of him, which I most likely don't tell him often enough. I think he's going to enjoy helping with the kit. I know I'll be happy to have the help and company. I also know that when the kit starts taking on the look of a plane, that's when the excitement and realization of the accomplishment that will be made will be greater than many can claim. Imagine being 13~14 years old and showing your friends that "you" are helping to build an airplane that will one day take to the sky!

There's much more to come of this story. Thanks for your exceptionally kind words.

Todd

[LA F2 Flyer]

This is going to be fun, Todd! And I love the fact that you will be mentoring Justin through the process. This should be life-changing for him.

I can't wait until you both get to building!

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I can't wait until you both get to building!

Me too!

[13brv3]

I beg you to put that fuselage on some accurate scales before you do anything else with it. I've read all sorts of numbers about the difference in weight between 4130 and titanium, but this would be a direct comparison if you weigh yours, and I will (eventually) weigh mine. Some close-ups of the welds would be nice too. I'm guessing those are MIG welded, but I don't know that much about welding titanium.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

I beg you to put that fuselage on some accurate scales before you do anything else with it. I've read all sorts of numbers about the difference in weight between 4130 and titanium, but this would be a direct comparison if you weigh yours, and I will (eventually) weigh mine. Some close-ups of the welds would be nice too. I'm guessing those are MIG welded, but I don't know that much about welding titanium.

Most certainly can do. That would be good info. Chris mentioned his guys estimate somewhere around 11Lbs savings. Considering there's simply not much to the frames, that's a pretty large a number.

Now the below is all very variable. Sources and accuracy's are going to be best guestimates at best. With the Titanium frame I get 11 Lbs savings. One of the pictures on the Badland Aircraft website shows I believe an F1 or F2 at 239 Lbs fully built. Let's take 11 Lbs off that for 228 Lbs. Note: So people complained when I did this on a similar comparison in another post, claiming the plane must be level to measure it's true weight. This is totally false. The planes weight for measurement only, does not have to be level. Being level and measuring weight is only required for CG calculations, not for weight only. The weight for both methods would still total the exact same weight. Tilting the plane does not affect overall total weight. So, I'm theoretically at 228 Lbs. Now add a safety chute. Though the chute weighs in (lowest weight we could find) is 11 Lbs. Now the plane is back to 239 Lbs. But, the FAA gives a 25 Lbs allowance for the chute. My new regulator max weight for the plane is 279 Lbs. So, 279-239=40 Lbs of play room. That'll be good because the Hirth F23 I want to use weighs in at 83 Lbs. A Pollini 202 (which is a guess as to what is in the F1/F2 on Chris's web site) weighs in at 38 Lbs. But I only have 40 Lbs to play with? I need 45, what am I going to do? Well, the F23 weight includes starter/generator which is around 7 Lbs and the complete exhaust system, including mufflers. I have no idea what that weighs. I'm taking a hopeful guess that it's going to be enough to match or better than the Pollini 202's weight difference once the starter/generator and exhaust system are added to the Pollini. My guess is, it will work out fine. Plus as mentioned, this is all VERY variable and a best guess. On some calculations I came up with near 20 Lbs of wiggle room, on other calculations I was down into single digits. I've not once gone over the FAA's 279 Lbs for a chutted plane. Plus, there's really no issue with making ramp weight. Remember, if the plane can fly without equipment (instruments, seat cushions, radio...etc), and is removable, it's cargo, not measurable weight of the plane. Just watch to not exceed the 550 gross limit of the plane. Of course the FAA regulations are vague at best, allowing them to bend the rules to cause a violation if the so choose, but, in the last 3+ years, with all the ultralights out there, and all the posts I've read, I have only heard of one ramp check ever happening. I'm certainly not saying, to push past the regulations. We certainly want to maintain good ground between the UL community and the FAA. What I am saying is, use reasonable methods to keep our birds in compliance, fly safely and with respect for the regulations, and the chance for any issues at all is very much minimized. From reading your posts though, you already know all this. I'm posting it more for newbie's, like me, who has piloted before, but that was back in 1999, and wasn't a UL. It'll be interesting to see what the overall weight of my F5 will be!

Sorry if this post is kind of screwy. I'm typing it up in my cell phone!

Thanks,
Todd

PS> I know and fully understand your avatar. My adventure with getting a Badland Aircraft started clear back before 12/2021! Yep, a very long time ago. First, I had to come up with funding. That took much longer than I wanted it to. Then the war between Russia and Ukraine started. Access to Titanium became difficult, and EXPENSIVE! Chris was also working on getting the Titanium CNC cutting done, which with a limited supply of Titanium took much longer than he hoped for. Once Titanium started showing up on the market again, the price was still crazy, and supply was backlogged. Don't think that Chris and I didn't have a few discussions about these delays, we did, but we also worked through them. Once the Titanium was available, Chris had to re-configure his welders and other machines to handle the metal. It's tough stuff, and requires a completely different setup of the welders and grinders compared to working with 4130. Now add in that his backlog for planes just keeps growing and being pushed out. Thank goodness, he's got the two extra guys on staff. Prior to that, he was pushing these planes out all by himself. Even with some outside assembly of parts for him, that still made for extremely long workdays and weeks. All I can tell you is to hang in there. The day WILL come that he calls you to tell you, your plane is ready.

[13brv3]

Yes, just having a little fun with the Avatar

My second ETA is coming up in a week or two, at the 1 year mark, so maybe you can just toss mine on the trailer with yours and I'll meet you in Chattanooga Sadly, I'm still assuming it will be closer to August.

Is your frame powder coated? Mine will be, so it would be a direct comparison if yours is too. Of course it's also another variable since it could be a little heavier on one than the other. I'd really love to know if he changed tubing diameters, which you'll be able to measure. Of course there's no way to know the tubing thickness unless he's willing to share that info. I have a friend who's looking into buying some Ti direct from China, and I might get in on that order.

The only comment I'd have on your weight calculations is the recovery chute allowance. Lots of people claim you just get an automatic max allowance for that, regardless of the actual weight. I read it as the actual weight, not an automatic amount. If that's the case, then using a lighter chute doesn't help with legality. Since they don't really check weights, it's likely no one has tested this theory. It's also well known that each FAA office interprets the rules as they see fit, so there's never really any guarantee.

Rusty

[13brv3]

Another weight penalty is going to be the prop. Polinis use those featherweight e-props, and I don't know if there's a similar option for the F-23.

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

Now that's funny Rusty, but most likely I'd miss the turnoff or even forget. You'd have to come to Florida and pick up your bird

Yes on the powder coating. Mine is gloss black.

I can pull out the micrometer and get an OD. Maybe there's an open end somewhere and I can get a thickness as well.

You're spot on about the FAA interpretation of the reg, but as I read it, I get the opposite impression, it is a full 25 Lbs allowance. This is because the chute weight can change, and though sometimes heartless, the FAA does on occasion remain flexible.

I think the trick is just like with the police, be nice The other reason I believe this to be correct about the weight allowance is that it follows the same allowance the FAA provides for pontoons.

The FAA would have to keep records of every manufacturer's weight for their products, or require pilots to do this, providing proof of weight.

The FAA can easily say a plane is overweight if it passes the 254 Lbs and blame it on the chute. How could they justify having a pilot remove a very important safety device from the plane just to prove it's below 254 Lbs? I know, it's the government They can do what they want.

I also find it funny that when most knowing people are asked, or research is done anywhere but the FAR, most say max weight is 254 Lbs, but that's not what the reg says. It says under 254 Lbs. I guess that would be one of those times when 254.0 showed up scale screen and the pilot hasn't pissed off the FAA agent

Really though it doesn't matter. What I mean by that is I think most of us want as low a weight as we can get to get the most out of our 5 gallons of fuel I wish the allowance for that would increase. I was watching a pilot the other day on YT. He was talking about how he always carries an extra gallon fuel bag. I was thinking, not allowed! Then he clarified, his tank is only 4 gallons! So, did he slip up and popped in the 4 gallon tank to cover is butt? Or is he telling the truth? Doesn't matter to me, but it was funny.

I found this on YT, thought you'd like it, I do.



There's also the weight for our material. I'm planning on using Oratex. Oratex claims low weight, but I've also read/YT that other covering is lighter....but then we have to remember, those need to be painted.

It's sort of crazy.

Oh, and I think E-Prop makes a three blade that'll work well. That's another one I would like to have, ground adjustable!

Todd

[13brv3]

There have been plenty of discussions about the chute limit, so we probably don't want to go too far into the weeds here. The rule says:

(i) Up to 24 pounds of weight associated with the parachute system
may be excluded by the FAA without requiring a separate weighing of the system
components.

To me, that means they "may" give you 24 lbs to make it easy, but certainly could require you to remove it and weight it.

Similar type wording for floats:

(2) Floats Used For Landings On Water. Only the weight of the floats
and any integral, external attachment points are excluded. All other items
associated with attachment of the floats to the airframe are included in the
vehicle's empty weight. Up to 30 pounds per float may be excluded by the FAA
without requiring substantiation of the float's actual weight.

I do believe the most important thing is to have a well reasoned explanation for the way you interpreted it. If they don't agree, maybe they tell you to change it, but go easy on the fines.

I've never heard of a ramp check, but a local UL pilot did something unconventional in the pattern, and a student pilot there on a solo cross country got spooked and left the area. When he told his instructor, they called the FAA, and the FAA spoke with every UL pilot at that airport. As bad as that's starting to sound, it really wasn't. They didn't show up with scales in their hands. They did this by phone, and it was 100% about promoting safety and coexistence with GA. The guy who told me this was one of the UL pilots there (definitely not the offender), and he said they weren't out to bust anyone, and didn't even inquire about who it might have been. It was all treated as a safety reminder. The FAA definitely isn't all bad.

I'll be interested to know if e-props makes something for the F-23. I really need to talk to them about a prop for my goofy rotary engine.

I've never heard of any covering beating Oratex for weight, assuming it's properly coated (sealer/UV/paint). I've accumulated about enough for 2 planes, and I'm only going to cover part of the fuselage. I just like the partially naked look, and appreciate the easy of inspection and maintenance.

Rusty

[Badland-F5 Pilot]

There have been plenty of discussions about the chute limit, so we probably don't want to go too far into the weeds here. The rule says:

(i) Up to 24 pounds of weight associated with the parachute system
may be excluded by the FAA without requiring a separate weighing of the system
components.

To me, that means they "may" give you 24 lbs to make it easy, but certainly could require you to remove it and weight it.

Very true. I look at the end of that sentence and have hope And you are absolutely right, there's been and will most likely continue to be discussion about this. My sister says I'm a negative person. In this case I think I'm a realist, in most situations unless I piss the FAA off, they are going to take the easiest route for evaluating. And honestly, I hope I'm at or under weight.

Similar type wording for floats:

(2) Floats Used For Landings On Water. Only the weight of the floats
and any integral, external attachment points are excluded. All other items
associated with attachment of the floats to the airframe are included in the
vehicle's empty weight. Up to 30 pounds per float may be excluded by the FAA
without requiring substantiation of the float's actual weight.

Same thing, hoping to have a friendly inspector. That brings up the other part of this, the chance of a ramp check is pretty darn low. Fly like an idiot and attract unwanted attention, that may change!

I do believe the most important thing is to have a well reasoned explanation for the way you interpreted it. If they don't agree, maybe they tell you to change it, but go easy on the fines.

Totally agree. Don't try to pull a fast one. There's some wiggle room, but pushing it can be something a pilot might regret.

I've never heard of a ramp check, but a local UL pilot did something unconventional in the pattern, and a student pilot there on a solo cross country got spooked and left the area. When he told his instructor, they called the FAA, and the FAA spoke with every UL pilot at that airport. As bad as that's starting to sound, it really wasn't. They didn't show up with scales in their hands. They did this by phone, and it was 100% about promoting safety and coexistence with GA. The guy who told me this was one of the UL pilots there (definitely not the offender), and he said they weren't out to bust anyone, and didn't even inquire about who it might have been. It was all treated as a safety reminder. The FAA definitely isn't all bad.

Agreed, the FAA's main goal is safety, and I can agree totally with that. My FAA examiner was killed when while out with one of his own students, an elderly pilot came in on a straight in landing and came down on top of the student and FAA examiner after they had called left on final. Both planes went down, all three people were lost. There were questions about the radio calls, if they were correct, or even if the elderly pilot had a radio in his plane. I'm also a train hobbyist and have worked on full size trains as a volunteer in the past. First rule of working around trains - Safety First.

That does bring up some other questions. If the FAA is so much into safety, why aren't they willing to help ultralight pilots in some way to be able to get appropriate flight training. Yes, we can all take online ground school, but as you know, there is no substitute for actually being in an aircraft. And one of my pet peeves in this area is how PPG's got approval for FAA Exemption 4721 and essentially the same was taken away from ultralight airplanes. I think it was USPPA that self regulates to ensure they keep the exemption. I wish the EAA would step up and do the same for ultralight airplanes so we could bring back tandem flight for training purposes without having training schools register their tandem UL's. The last school I spoke to had a tandem UL, but they shut the program down. They said the insurance was killing them. I've also been told that the reason the FAA won't issue the exemption for ultralight airplanes is because we fly faster than PPG's. Instead, we are left with less safe beginning UL pilots. Doesn't make sense to me.

I'll be interested to know if e-props makes something for the F-23. I really need to talk to them about a prop for my goofy rotary engine.

I'll let you know once I get down that road. I think Bruce is also going with the F23. That rotary is going to be bad crazy. I remember in high school the guys that had a Mazda Rotary Pickup. Those little things wound up so fast, it was really amazing just how quick they were. I'm wondering when you go from idle to full throttle if that plane is going to jump off the ground! Without yanking pistons back and forth, those rotaries spun up superfast. I'm looking forward to seeing that plane and engine combination some day. Oh, and not forgetting, the weight savings will be enormous.

I've never heard of any covering beating Oratex for weight, assuming it's properly coated (sealer/UV/paint). I've accumulated about enough for 2 planes, and I'm only going to cover part of the fuselage. I just like the partially naked look, and appreciate the easy of inspection and maintenance.

Rusty

Same here. Once sealer, protection, and color is added, that's got to be some extra weight compared to a pre-colored Oratex fabric. Peer went with the naked look on his F2 for the same reasons you stated. I'm still on the fence. I like both looks. The ease of inspection and maintenance is a big plus. Several of us were chatting about the wind resistance difference. Is there more on the tubing with turbulence or more on the fabric with full coverage (plus the added weight (though minor, it's still extra weight)).

I hope your evening has gone well Rusty. I'm enjoying the conversation.

Todd
24 Days and Counting!

[13brv3]

The F-23 is definitely my favorite 2-stroke. I had one on an Airbike for about 6 months and it was very well behaved. I always suspected that it wasn't really 50 HP, but the Airbike was 350 lbs even after I knocked 25 lbs off so that probably had something to do with it. Looking at it, you'd never suspect it it was that heavy, but it was N-numbered so there wasn't a legal issue. I've spoken with more than one Legal Eagle owner who admitted their plane was more than 100 lbs overweight, and again you couldn't see any obvious reason for it. Making the legal weight is really not an easy task.

The all up weight of the AIXRO rotary is about 20 lbs less than the F-23, but it's also 10HP less on paper. Aside from a couple RV-8's, I've never installed the engine that was recommended. Just gotta be different I guess.

It is a shame about the training situation. I know a guy who's been building a Kolb Firefly, but has only one or two intro flights in a GA plane. He's having no luck finding a suitable plane/instructor.